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Iuval Clejan's avatar

From my friend Barry:

Dear Iuval,

"Interesting article. I'm not sure I absorbed all of it, but it had some good ideas.

As with your other writing, I think more specificity would help. I gather from your post that ICs are not doing as well as you think they should. I assume - though its not totally clear from the text - that the problem is that not enough people are joining or forming them, and the ones that do form struggle with internal governance and are not providing the kind of life that they should be. And I guess Sky Blue and you are both trying to fix those problems."

Only superficially is that "the problem", and the conflicts are not just about governance. Upstream of that is that they (the communards) don't really need each other, given the intrusion of the global economy into their lives, which has only gotten worse with the internet. I guess I failed to convey that.

"But you are describing all these problems in abstract ways. What does a community where "passive-aggressive conflict-avoidant behavior prevail" look like? Passive-aggressive covers a lot of ground. X tells me I'm being passive aggressive when I ask politely what she wants to do when she feels that really I mean I want her to do something in particular but I'm not coming out and saying it. Similarly getting "stuck in a polarized dynamic". That could be anything from having long community meetings over controversies to people refusing to talk to each other because they disagree about whether to buy out-of-season vegetables or whatever. "

Those were coming from Sky, not from me, and I didn't know the specifics, nor did I want to distract the reader with them, because ultimately the specifics don't matter! Or maybe they matter the same way the underlying dynamics of a gas matter for thermodynamics, in some average way.

"If the problems are described more clearly, it will help guide you in explaining how the principles you are advocating will help solve them. "

If there is no higher level to an individual (human or not), there are an infinite number of conflicts that can arise. If there is a higher level, then internal conflict will be selected against in an infinite number of ways. That is the understanding (one might say dogma) of multi-level-selection. The only refinement I offer is the generalized Dunbar number, that the number of parts at each level matters, there is an optimum for fitness (and maybe other utility functions when the levels are not evolutionary). And the only other new thing is that capitalism tends to dissolve those levels, specifically their "membranes" that keep their parts interdependent on each other more than on external sources.

"There does seem to be a fundamental tension about the size of a community that one lives in. As you point out, humans seem to be evolved to deal with around one or two hundred other humans. If you live in a medieval village, that's your community. But the basis of your connection is just proximity and the fact that you build up trust with them and depend on them. As you mention, that can be enforced by authoritarian customs (Do what your elders say). Modern society gives you other options which are very attractive. Your 100-200 people consist of your extended family, your neighbors, your coworkers, maybe your spouse's coworkers, people who share some common interest via religion or a hobby or a sport, etc. It's hard to find all those people in your village, because the village isn't going to necessarily have many people interested in (for example) theoretical physics or whatever sport you happen to fancy. Or, if you use the collective of villages you mention (or larger collection of collectives) to find the people whose interests intersect yours, we are back to weakening the bonds with your local community because you are putting energy into these other synthetic communities."

Yes. That is a tension/dialectic between the human need for variety and choice (liberal), and the human need for stability and strength in one's connections (conservative). In a way, ICs were supposed to solve/synthesize that tension by choosing whom your connections are and becoming more strongly dependent on them, but they failed mostly in the latter, and partially the failure was due to capitalism and their strongly liberal nature (the conservative ones do better). I think there is more to the stability of a medieval village than authority, proximity and trust. Trust is built because people depend on each other for basic needs, and those villages that survive are those where that interdependence (and hence trust) is strong.

"Again, if there is no choice, and you have a bunch of people who are not especially interested in expressing their individuality, then you play whatever sport the village plays, go to whatever church the village has, and think about what the other villagers think about. But I'm guessing that the kind of people who are going to go looking for an IC in 21st century USA are going to tend to be noncomformnists who will have pretty specific ideas about the kind of people they want to invest energy into. "

Yes. And still, without the glue of strong interdependence, conflict will arise even with those people. Can that interdependence be created without an evolutionary pressure on the IC? I am not sure if our foresight and understanding is strong enough to create it, without an evolutionary pressure.

"I went to a high school with 160 students (40 per grade). It was such a relief to go to MIT (4000 undergrads), both because it was already selecting for rare characteristics in the people and because such a large group could accommodate multiple different groups (Next House & Senior House, physicists and electrical engineers and linguists). "

I enjoyed our alma mater partially for that reason too. And yet, that was such a transitory experience. You and Lew and Larry (whom I know from high school) are my only friends whom I keep in touch with from that time.

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Rainbow Medicine-Walker's avatar

An interesting analysis. Some very good points I agree with and also a bit brain twisty for me personally. Other than economic or legal problems, the lack of fundamental shared values seems to me the number one destroyer of intentional communities. By shared values I am not talking mission statements or larger than life visions we can all get excited about and get behind. I am talking collectively agreed upon understandings of what actually is a clean bathroom for instance. When you take a group of folks from widely divergent backgrounds and expect them to somehow magically live together harmoniously day in and day out, well it approaches the miraculous for that be long term successful imo. Again I am not talking differences in religious belief or even differences in world view, I am talking differences in basic standard of living stuff. The things we all make baseline assumptions about and unconsciously assume that others must also share. Yes rampant out of control capitalism plays a role in making the economics of intentional community living very difficult, but I think most IC's are just way way overpriced for most ordinary folks. My husband and I can live significantly cheaper on our own than in any IC we have explored. This seems quite backwards to me since I look at community living as an evolutionary human survival mechanism, meaning it evolved to make basic survival for BOTH the individuals and the group easier not harder! So from my perspective instead of saying that the messed up world makes IC living hard, I would say that IC's really need to look at the reality of what individual members need to actually survive in a falling apart world. So basically I guess I am opposed to the inherent ideology of IC's being a social experiment/example of how to create a better world. If IC's are to work they need to get over themselves imo. Lots of entitlement attitude and trust funds going on with IC's and average folks are just turned off and/or cannot afford that. Sorry but starting an IC should not be a 'holy mission' imo, it should be first and foremost about basic survival. Fine to have a larger vision/purpose but that should not supercede practicality.

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